Traveller-digest      Tuesday, August 24 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 1009



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[none]
Re: slightly OT: Looking to locate...
Re: OT : Alarets
Re: OT : Alarets
Re: slightly OT: Looking to locate...
MT Authorship
Re: Long Range Scouts
re:GURPS Traveller EW Module
Re:Roma Class Feedback.
Re: I Need Some Radiation
Re: slightly OT: Looking to locate...
Re: I Need Some Radiation
Re: Asterisks
Re: I Need Some Radiation
Re: Insulting Leonard
Re: Plankwell
Re: Insulting Leonard
Re: RE cute, fuzzy
RE: Streamlining
Re: Shirt Pictures
Re: Shirt picture favorites?...
Re: Shirt Pictures
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)
RE: Shirt Pictures
Re: Ditzie Shirts
Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:59:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: [none]

>At 03:46 24/08/1999 -0400, "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> wrote:
>>>1)  Inertia.
>>>
>>>There are no inertial dampers outside the bad guy ship.  What will
>>>happen to the PC as he holds onto the bar?  Can he withstand the force
>>>of the ship moving and ride on the outside of the thing?  Or will the
>>>ship leave him floating in its wake?
>>>
>>
>>Holding on: simple... if he can hold on when somebody suddenly tripples his
>>weight (Sorta like suddenly removing the counterbalance on a weight around
>>his midrif) while rotating him to a new "Down" direction, maybe. I'd say
>>rather slim odds, tho... and probably some broken bones.
>
>I'd strongly suggest considering dislocated shoulders, elbows or fingers
>over broken bokens

I was thinking of greenstick fractures, from torsional stresses to the
arms, plus the invariable body slams against the hull, especially if
tethered.

William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click
interface!"
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
533
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:03:25 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: slightly OT: Looking to locate...

Sadly not just you. I get ~98K read and then it hangs forever.

Mike


"David J. Golden" wrote:
> 
> >I thought the archive would be DOA now and I'd have to recreate it
> somewhere,
> >but it's still there...
> >       ftp://ftp.ocf.berkeley.edu/pub/Traveller/TNE-pocket
> 
>         Is it just me, or is the site refusing to give a directory to
> *anybody*? I can log on, but then I sit there until the cows come
> home waiting for the directory listing ...
> -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
>    Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
> 
>    Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings, they
>    did it by killing all those who opposed them.

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:50:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OT : Alarets

The Alaret post seems to have not gotten to my system. Anybody want to
shoot me a copy?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:21:47 -0400
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: OT : Alarets

Yer lucky I didn't erase my sent messages box yet..

Here is the Alaret post :
Danson's Chance (Alaret)

Size :  30cm                                        weight :  2kg
Speed :  20                                          Hits :  3/0
Planet :  all                                           Terrain :  Caves

Danson's Chance looks like a small flat rug, dark brown.  It clings to the
ceiling of a cave from which drops on the heads of intruders.

There is a 99% chance (which can be adjusted for personal fortitude) that
the victim will die; if he does not, he will gain the creature as a
symbiote, providing an auxiliary brain and fine control of body functions.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:20:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: slightly OT: Looking to locate...

"David J. Golden" wrote:
> 
> >I thought the archive would be DOA now and I'd have to recreate it
> somewhere,
> >but it's still there...
> >       ftp://ftp.ocf.berkeley.edu/pub/Traveller/TNE-pocket
> 
>         Is it just me, or is the site refusing to give a directory to
> *anybody*? I can log on, but then I sit there until the cows come
> home waiting for the directory listing ...

Probably an incompatibility issue with ftp in passive mode.  Try standard ftp
instead of a browser, that seems to work fine.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:22:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: MT Authorship

>Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>For MT Knightfall is also pretty good (though the most of the best MT
>>material
>>was published by DGP).
>
>Knightfall = Produced by DGP
>
Looking in my MT Ref's Manual, it reads "Edited by Joe D. Fugate, Sr. and
Gary L. Thomas"...

It would seem that the vast majority of the MT Rules were edited by DGP's
JDF Sr and GLT...

William F. Hostman  |  "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click
interface!"
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
533
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:30:10 +0100
From: "Nick Bradbeer" <nickb@ndirect.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Long Range Scouts

>>I haven't seen a truly LONG range scout yet.  Jump-6 with a long endurance.
>>The ones in CT are Jump-4.  The Book 2 rules allow for a Jump-6 100dT scout,
>>but none of the later rules make it possible.  Perhaps one with a new
>>silhouette?
>
>It's doable under MT...


It's also doable under FFS.

To follow up the Xen, I present the Ironwing Class Fast Scout:

General Data
Displacement: 100 tons
Hull Armor: 20
Length: 15.28 meters
Volume: 1,400 m3
Price: 70.35 MCr
Target Size: S
Configuration:Streamlined Disc (2:1)
Tech Level: 15
Mass (Loaded/Unloaded): 787.1 / 550.2


Engineering Data
Power Plant: 132 MW Fusion Power Plant, 1 year duration (13.2 m3 fuel)
Jump Performance: 6 (490 m3 fuel)
G-Rating: 2G HEPlaR (39.34 MW/G), High-Efficiency CG Lifter (10 MW)
G-Turns: 57 (J5: 73.6; J4: 90.2; J3: 106.8; J2: 123.4; J1: 140; 156.6 using
all jump fuel), 4.9 m3 fuel each
Maint: 29

Electronics
Computer: 3xTL-15 Standard computer (0.55 MW)
Commo: Maser (1000 AU; 0.6 MW), Radio (10 hex; 10 MW)
Sensors: AEMS (8 hex; 13 MW), PEMS Folding array (5 hex; 0.15 MW),
Densitometer (0.4 MW), Neutrino Sensor (0.01 MW),
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: No bridge, 2 normal workstations, , High Automation

Armament
Offensive: TL-15 144-MJ Laser Turret (Loc:0-Arcs:0;20 MW;1 crew)
144-MJ Laser Turret == 10:1/10-30 == 20:1/10-30 == 40:1/10-30 == 80:1/10-30

Accommodations
Life Support: Extended (0.12 MW), Gravitic Compensators (3.06 MW)
Crew: 2-3 (2xManeuver, 1xOptional Gunnery)
Crew Accommodations: 2xSmall Stateroom (0.5 kW)
Passenger Accommodations: 2xSmall Stateroom (0.5 kW)
Cargo: 182 m3 (13 tons), 1 Large Hatches
Air Locks: 1

Notes
Total Fuel Tankage: 783.5 m3 (56.0 tons).
Fuel scoops (4% of ship surface), fills tanks in 3.5 hours.
Fuel purification machinery (1.3MW), 18.08 hours to refine 783.5 m3.
Crew requirements are calculated by using 'Original FFS' crew model.
7.1 MW power shortfall.



The Ironwing is a flat disc 15 metres across with a teardrop shaped fuselage
rising out of the centre. This fuselage contains bridge, staterooms and
cargo bay, with engineering spaces located across the back of the disc and
accessable only by crawlways. Sensors line the forward edges, arrayed below
fuel scooping vents and bridge windows. The airlock is located ventrally, on
the after centerline, immediately abaft the cargo loading hatch. The gentle
curve of the dorsal surface is broken only by the low dome of the turret.

Inside, the ship has a utilitarian feel and fairly cramped quarters. The
bridge doubles as a workspace, and contains a small kitchen and fresher. The
two crew share four staterooms between them on routine survey missions, but
the ship can carry up to eight persons for an extended duration, and up to
twenty four at an absolute limit, although ths number would only be carried
in the most extreme circumstances. The bridge lies at the front of a short
corridor with two staterooms to either side. The after end of the corridor
is a set of stairs leading down into the airlock, with access hatches for
turret and engineering to either side.

Normally the ship is operated with a crew of two manoevre-trained crew, one
of whom is often cross-trained in gunnery. For missions where trouble is
likely a specialist gunner is often carried, upping the roster to three
although this obviously inceases operating costs. As far as mission
equipment runs the ship is decked out similarly to the Sulemaine, although
with a slightly inferior Active EMS Array. The Ironwing's crew accomodation
is notably more spartan, but some tradeoffs must be expected for a 200%
increase in Jump performance. Cargo carriage is slightly increased, and the
power plant is slightly downrated by comparison.


++++

Nick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:29:30 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: re:GURPS Traveller EW Module

Wow, good timing. I actually made some of these myself earlier today, when I was
checking out and enhancing the default GT bridge systems for my Infiltration
Shuttle. The rest I will add straight away.

>Construction stats:
>                              Weight   Volume       Cost     Power
>Radio DF (extreme, very sen.) 5000.0   100.00     $7,500     0.005

I got                          5000.0   100.00     $1,500     0.2

>Area Jammer (rating 12)        250.0     5.00    $50,000  1250.000

Range of only 60 miles - hmm, I can use that, but that's a very specific use,
why do you need it?

>Macroframe

Why such a big one? This is the major component of the module & price tag. 
What EW software have you got up your sleeve?

Unless you are thinking of code breaking & multi-stream data analysis software 
- - in which case you have exactly the same use as me ;-)

>1,312.905 kw Fusion Power      262.6     5.25    $13,129     0.000
>Power Access Space               0.0    21.01         $0     0.000

Long term access space is equal to power system volume doubled. So 10.5 cf only.

I would also put a few fuel cells in there to enable the computer & detectors to
be run for long periods with everything else shut down, including that noisy
neutrino source, otherwise known as a fusion reactor.

I would also put some fuel cells in the thruster module to enable a few minutes
manouver without the reactor too.

http://homepages.tesco.net/~john.buston/StonesThrow.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:31:47 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re:Roma Class Feedback.

>Back to the planing boards. (and jettison Spacedock)

Before/even if you do that you might want to compare output with another (free)
program, e.g. Tom Bont's GTS. Available from http://209.39.36.25/gurps/. I have
found it accurate.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:03:37 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: I Need Some Radiation

At 02:19 PM 8/24/99 -0700, you wrote:
>David J. Golden writes:
>> 
>>      This one is, I think, entirely your call ... at least until
Glenn
>> makes a better report on his sighting near Area 51 and we find out
>> just what thruster plates are. Blue light, by itself, isn't a
>> penetrating radiation hazard. It may be bright enough to burn
through
>> a faceplate, or even fry. What other radiation accompanies it is
up
>> to you.
>
>Presumably 'blue light' was chosen to resemble cerenkov radiation,
in which case I guess you're being affected by a wave of tachyons,
since nothing else will produce cerenkov radiation in vacuum.

	Unless the cerenkov radiation is being produced by
something-or-other moving through the matter of the hull/thrusters.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings, they 
   did it by killing all those who opposed them.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:07:03 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: slightly OT: Looking to locate...

At 03:20 PM 8/24/99 -0700, you wrote:
>"David J. Golden" wrote:
>> 
>> >I thought the archive would be DOA now and I'd have to recreate
it
>> somewhere,
>> >but it's still there...
>> >       ftp://ftp.ocf.berkeley.edu/pub/Traveller/TNE-pocket
>> 
>>         Is it just me, or is the site refusing to give a directory
to
>> *anybody*? I can log on, but then I sit there until the cows come
>> home waiting for the directory listing ...
>
>Probably an incompatibility issue with ftp in passive mode.  Try
standard ftp instead of a browser, that seems to work fine.

	Just the opposite: Netscrape was at least able to pull up a
directory listing for the base directory given above, and read files
in it. But no subdirectories, which is where all the goodies seem to
be. My FTP client won't even get a directory.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings, they 
   did it by killing all those who opposed them.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:15:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: I Need Some Radiation

David J. Golden writes:
 
>      Unless the cerenkov radiation is being produced by
> something-or-other moving through the matter of the hull/thrusters.


The hull/thrusters are transparent?  Blue light inside an opaque chunk of metal isn't very interesting.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:22:43 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Asterisks

> Leonard uses *numbers* a lot. They're kind of close to the asterix on the
> numeric keypad.

Alright Sherlock, are we done with this silliness? ;)

The things some people notice...
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:24:07 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: I Need Some Radiation

At 04:15 PM 8/24/99 -0700, you wrote:
>David J. Golden writes:
> 
>>      Unless the cerenkov radiation is being produced by
>> something-or-other moving through the matter of the
hull/thrusters.
>
>
>The hull/thrusters are transparent?  Blue light inside an opaque
chunk of metal isn't very interesting.

	Actually, not being that familiar with Cerenkov radiation (aside
from the basic concept), I was visualizing the C-r emitted by the
surface layer of the hull/thrusters/whatever. Agreed, the C-r
"emitted" inside isn't going very far ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings, they 
   did it by killing all those who opposed them.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:28:04 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Insulting Leonard

>  I'd learned, at my  grandpappy's knee, that asterisk meant *bold*,
> underline meant _underline_, slash meant /italic/; all generically
> provide some form of emphasis to the words so marked.

Gee, I like this. The / is *much* easier to reach. Don't _you_ think so?
;)
I do like it though.
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:30:41 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Plankwell

> The thing is that I think the Plankwell has more personallity

I have a crude B/W scan, and I like the shape. I would love to see Jesse
render a few beauty shots of her.
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:32:55 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Insulting Leonard

    I just wanted to   interject about how well behaved and enjoyable this 
list is.    I siigned up for the new D&D list recently and I feel like I've 
been "Clifed" all over again.

        Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:36:36 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: RE cute, fuzzy

> Obviously all the professionals in the Star Wars universe have been
> neglecting the study of tactics to an extreme degree....

Lucas is a very silly guy. I am greatly disappointed with the evolution of
his storyline. If the Ewoks had been Wookies, well, /that/ would make sense.
Not cuddly enough.

George is a *great* storyteller... For me to poop on!
Bleh, sorry SW fans, I just had to get that off my chest. I love the idea,
and the comics that preceded the sequels, but I think the story degenerates
only slightly slower than Herberts Arrakis series.
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:36:13 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: RE: Streamlining

At 04:40 PM 8/24/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Juliean Galak writes:
> >>         Entering the atmosphere may be possible, though awkward if
> >>         the ship must be pointed straight up all the time, but
> >>         landing requires more than surviving the atmosphere.  I
> >>         have always assumed that "streamlining" includes landing
> >>         gear, wilderness refueling equipment, and general design
> >>         considerations that allow access to the ship when it is
> >>         landed.
> >
> >well, that's an acceptable solution for small ships, but that still
> >doesn't explain why it's "streamlining" that's at stake here.  I can see
> >a 5000dt USL freighter slowly settling, nose up, into a prepared berth in
> >a downport, where various gantries grab onto it for support, and fuel
> >hoses attach to the same nozzles used in orbital refueling.  The ship
> >never completely powers down, and takes off, slowly, as soon as it's
> >unloaded and re-loaded.
>
>         Sounds like a good system to me.  IMTU, it is easier and
>         cheaper to offload "unstreamlined" ships at the highport
>         and ferry the goods down in a shuttle, but what you
>         suggest sounds doable.

I'm having a hard time justifying that IMTU.  In fact, IMTU that's 
precisely the system I use.  IMHO, it's really cool to watch a multi-kdton 
freighter slowly lower itself to the pad.

The reason I brought this up to begin with was to find reasons why this 
_can't_ be done, since that seems to be the OTU claim...

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                          			     -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:40:00 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Shirt Pictures

> This is bloody obvious!  Ditzy Shirts!

Yes! I second that motion!
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:43:14 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Shirt picture favorites?...

> orginal starports cover, that Loren isn't using

This would be wonderful, and how about a special rendering of the various
models Jesse has in either a Highport traffic scene, or pitched battle. I
know, more work, but it would be awesome.
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:48:07 -0700
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Shirt Pictures

> OLDER Ditzy!

Kinky ' guy, eh? ;) I like the idea, but as counterpart, how about a
infant/toddler Ditzy with a GravWalker? Or a Holographic Etch-a-Sketch?
Son of the Right Hand
The Ravenous Wolf
Patriarch of Clan Hendricks
Prince of the Undeclared
Warder of the Sacred Herb
Steward of the Garden Eternal
Lord of House Akella
High Epopt of the Brotherhood for the Abolition of Temporal/Spatial Reality
and the Unification of the Shekinah

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:48:32 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

At 12:07 AM 8/24/99 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > This brings up an interesting question: why can't an USL ship land in an
> > atmosphere?  Considering the fact that some of them have 6G of thrust, a
> > mere 1G of gravity shouldn't bother them (of course, if it's the AG that
> > provides some of the structural strength, then you'd need to keep that on).
>
> > As for the atmosphere itself, that's only an issue if you do a fast, TL7
> > spacecraft style landing.  Given either CG or Thruster Plates/Reactionless
> > thrusters, it should be possible for a ship to take a few hours to 
> _slowly_
> > come down through the atmosphere and land gently.  Same on takeoff.
>
>The problem is *wind*. USL is "unstable" in a wind. I won't go into
>details, just note that the wind forces act thru a point *other* than
>the center of mass. And where the point is depends on the angle. Thus,
>in the presence of even a *light* wind, the vehicle will tumble
>wildly.
>
> > Am I overlooking something?  Is this in a faq somewhere?  Or is this an
> > acknowledged hole in Traveller?
>
>It's a frequently debated question.
>
>Having had to design objects that were aerodynamicly stable at low
>speeds, I can assure you that it will be a major problem.
>
>Engine thrust is fixed with respect to the hull. And any "deflections"
>are figure with respect to the hull, not with respect to the outside
>world.
>
>Thus, when a light gust of wind exerts more force on one side of the CG
>than the other, the ship will turn in the direction of the excess wind
>load. But the thrust *also* turns (until someone tells the system to
>change it).
>
>So now the ship is moving in a *different* direction relative to the
>wind. Which means the wind forces are form a different direction, and
>since (by definition) this ship is not even rudimentarily streamlined,
>the wind will now turn it in a *different* direction.
>
>The result is a wild tumble. And to attempt to compensate for it would
>require that the ship's computer be programmed with a lot of
>aerodynamic data about the ship. Which is hard to justify in a ship
>that (again, *by definition*) isn't intended to enter atmosphere.
>
>And even if you use this sort of computer aided stability, these wind
>forces impose a *lot* of strain on the hull. And in directions that
>manuevers in space *won't* impose stress.
>
>Now consider the fact that speed relative to the ground and speed
>relative to the atmosphere aren't the same thing. Not even close in far
>too many cases. Things like clear air turbulence and wind shear (the
>boundary between two masses of air moving in different directions at
>*very* different speeds) regularly destroy airliners that run into
>them. And being slow is a *dis*advantage, because it means you are
>dragged or tossed around for that much longer.
>
>Heck, look at hot air ballons. They are streamlined (really!) and move
>slowly. And even then, sudden updrafts and downdrafts are a danger.
>
>So, essentially, the answer is that a ship has to be *designed* to
>enter atmosphere.

Ok, this is a lot better than most arguments I've heard, but I'm still just 
not sure that these problems can't be dealt with by the ship's maneuvering 
thrusters.  Unfortunately, AFAIK, none of the design systems ever deal with 
just how powerful the "little" attitude thrusters are...  IOW, how fast can 
a ship rotate around it's CG?  If these are 6G thruster plates/HEPLARs that 
whip the ship around in any direction at will, than your argument doesn't 
work, since the ship can handle these stresses anyway.  OTOH, if these are 
little .01G nitrogen jets, you are certainly correct...

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                          			     -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:55:34 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <Paul@Schirf.com>
Subject: RE: Shirt Pictures

I see her at 6 months burning ants with a magnifying glass that has
crosshairs and a gun-stock.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:54:24 -0700
From: "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Ditzie Shirts

> Yeah. I want one too, in about a size five for my little girl. Who will be
> four soon, and has already lost the training wheels off her bike.

Look, you /will/ do adult sizes as well, right? Everyones talking 'bout
their ughters, but I want one for *me*. :)
////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so@ zh- vi+  A523
IMTU tc++ ?t4 ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:58:22 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: Thrust effects (was HEPlar lives!)

At 04:26 PM 8/24/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Juliean Galak wrote:
>
> > At 06:52 PM 8/24/99 +0100, you wrote:
> > > >This brings up an interesting question: why can't an USL ship land in an
> > > >atmosphere?  Considering the fact that some of them have 6G of thrust, a
> > > >mere 1G of gravity shouldn't bother them (of course, if it's the AG that
> > > >provides some of the structural strength, then you'd need to keep 
> that on).
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>[SLASHED FOR BREVITY]
>
> >
> > Instinctively, I have to agree with you.  If a vessel isn't designed for
> > atmosphere, it shouldn't be able to handle atmosphere.  But I want to know
> > _why_.  I'm really looking for specific problems the ship would
> > experience.  I don't think that internal bracing is an issue, as it's
> > already in place to survive the multi-G thrust of the ship.  (a ship rated
> > for .01G OTOH, _would_ get torn apart by a planet....)
> >
> >            -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
> >
>
>[MORE KNIFE WORK]
>
>Speaking as someone who builds and flies model rockets, the major problem 
>you are
>going to have with landing an unstreamlined ship in an atmosphere is control.
>
>Unless the exposed surfaces are balance with respect to the centers of 
>pressure
>and the center of mass, and the axis of thrust passes through the center 
>of both
>points, the ship will be /negatively/ stable.  Unless the control software is
>prepared to handle this, and control surfaces or sterring jets available to
>control the effects the instant they begin to occur, the ship will tumble 
>out of
>control at the first gust of wind or application of thrust.
>
>*WHEW*

Excellent discussion of CG/CP snipped for brevity.

>Since the USL ships can thrust at all, we can assume the axis of thrust passes
>through the center of mass, else they would spin out o control in all 
>cases.  One
>of the things that streamlining does is to assure that the center of 
>pressure is
>properly located.  USL ships have to reason to assure this, and in  many 
>cases it
>is difficult and awkward to assure this is so.
>
>Before anyone mentions gyro-stabilization, the forces we are talking about are
>immense on large graft, more than sufficient to rend steel at not unreasonable
>speeds.  Gyros could be used to detect sheearing, but you would have to 
>rely on
>some pretty honking thrusters or control surfaces.
Gyro stabilization is, of course out.  At this scale gyros are only useful 
as a feedback mechanism.

Would they have to be big thrusters? (see my answer to Leonard)  It seems 
to me that the vessels attitude thrusters would be more than 
enough....  Too bad none of the systems describe just how strong these are 
(AFAIK)


>PS.  Negatively stable craft do fly, but they are not very unstable, only
>relatvely unstable.  To far out of stability and there is no hope of reacting
>swiftly enough, or of being able to apply enough force to correct it.

Hmm... X31 fighter, negative static stability stability (not sure about 
dynamic...)  It's designed to be flown by a computer that constantly 
struggles to keep it in control.  Of course this doesn't apply here, as 
it's quite definitely SL and designed just for this purpose.

           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- --
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will
                          defend to the death your right to say it."
                                              -- Francois Marie Voltaire
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"
                          			     -- Albert Einstein
for PGP public-key and
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1009
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